Author Topic: Monitor Speakers  (Read 13839 times)

Stuff

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Monitor Speakers
« on: November 28, 2002, 04:09:31 AM »
At this time I'm very tired of mixing with the headphones. So I'm up to buy some studio monitors.
Is YAMAHA MSP5 a good choice?? Because they are pretty cheap.. aren't they?

Or do you know any other "cheap" studio monitor that kicks more arse than YAMAHA's MSP5??  (at least cheaper than GENELEC 1030 - that everyone says is the best biamp powered near-field studio monitor)

Ekko

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2002, 01:58:25 AM »
Uhh, big theme...

First of all: Cheap = shit.
Really, if there's one field where this sentence is really true, it's monitor-buying.

Genelecs aren't the best, since there is nothing like 'the best' and 'the worst' monitor.
Well, okay, there is a 'worst' monitor, the Yamaha NS10.
Still you'll find them in every good studio.
They sound like shit, you won't have any fun mixing on them, believe me.
The trick with monitors (and what most people oversee,) is to find a pair of monitors fitting your need. Your musical style. Monitors aren't made to sound good, for that purpose you buy normal speakers for your stereo.
Monitors are made for showing you what your mix needs.
Hence, if you get some cheaper monitors
(cheap = non-linear = bad), you'll get some speakers with added circuits to make music sound better.
Nice example: Behringer Truth. They're called 'Truth', but they heavily alter the sound. It's not what the signal really sounds like. But exactly that is what you want, nothing else. The truth. Not a good sound by itself.
This is the reason why the NS10 are spreaded so widely.
No one would put those monitors in their living room for good sound enjoyment, they soudn too bad, but they're honest.

Also, if you look for monitors, try to avoid passive ones, get active ones. Most monitors are availabe in those two versions, but for passive monitors you'll need an additional amplifier with very linear frequencys. There's a silly sounding rule, but it's true: The heavier the amp, the better the quality, because of the better material and electronics used in them.

Active monitors cost about the same as passive ones plus an okayish amp and sound better.

If I were you, I'd go to a good music shop and check out a few of them. And bring a reference-cd, a cd you know inside out (the sound), so you can get an impression of the weakpoints of the various moni's.

And always look at the frequency-response, most cheaper monitors (Tannoy reveal, Behringer Truth, Yamaha's for example) are weak at the bottom end (they should at least go down to 50Hz, better 35 - 40Hz).
Try to find the most linear moni's you can get for your money.
Don't save on monitors, they're the most important part of the mixing-setup.

Btw.: Don't buy monitors used, or at least, make sure you get an (actual!!) certification of the frequency response-values.
Be aware of eBay... Only buy when the auctioneer gives out beforementioned certification!

Happy mixdown,
Ekko
Tradition IS a tradition

Stuff

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2002, 04:35:01 AM »
Oh my.. thanks. Thats a well done answer mate.

The frequency range on MSP5 is claimed: 50Hz to 40kHz. But I don't know if that is reliable values? How do I get an (actual!!) certification of the frequency response-values??

One thing I've noticed is that YAMAHA MSP5 is the next generation after the 'horrible' ;-) NS10-series.
But if NS10 really sounds 'honest' and 'true'.. then why so bad? As you said: we want the truth, thats the monitors main job. (but I haven't been listening to some NS10 speakers, so I can't say so much about it anyway)

Yes, the best idea must be to walk in to a musical shop and listen to.... F.O.T.L. (as an example S.M.B.U. is a  good track for checking bass-response) :-) on all their monitors.
Bad luck for me (living on a little island in the middle of the baltic sea) that  T H E  musical shop may not have so much monitors in storage.. but thats an another problem :).

If you watch in Liam's studio [well, I think you already have.. but just in case: www.theprodigy.com ;-)] I think he uses MACKIE HR624 (or maybe HR824, I'm not sure) as near-field monitors Than he has those big Woofers... but one thing i learned on a quick visit at Sae-Institute in Stockholm was: that first of all - the mix must sound *good* on the small monitors.
I don't know if that's just a "mainstream-music way of mixing" but I think it makes sense.

So...? The woofers is just a nice toy when the mix is ready, to satisfy our needs of booming bass :-)
Am I right??

(and of course - by switching the subwoofers on, we get a picture how the complete mix sounds on a Club/big PA)

/ Greetings from Stuff

Zed

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2002, 02:51:47 PM »
dunno, guys.. first all, i'm not that rich to choose, secondly, i've got little another opinion about monitors. i prefer usual kind of monitor sound, some good mini hi-fi component systems (i like sony stuff here). why? because then i hear the sounds as all usual people hear it. when i'm doing a tune i hear the same that other peeps will hear. but that's my imho of course.
if i was in world war 2, they'd call me T-34!

Ekko

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2003, 07:15:02 PM »
Hi Stuff, sorry for the late answer, I had a lil internet-timeout.
No modem, no access, nothing.
Okay, lemme see....

Quote
The frequency range on MSP5 is claimed: 50Hz to 40kHz. But I don't know if that is reliable values? How do I get an (actual!!) certification of the frequency response-values??


The values are quite reliable, as far as I noticed.
It's very important for the manufacturers to be honest with this, as they can be fined for even slightly wrong details.
Although many of them cheat a little bit, for example by indicating the maximum output gain noise
« Last Edit: January 28, 2003, 07:21:38 PM by Ekko »
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Ekko

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2003, 07:15:47 PM »
Part II...

Quote
If you watch in Liam's studio [well, I think you already have.. but just in case: www.theprodigy.com ;-)] I think he uses MACKIE HR624 (or maybe HR824, I'm not sure) as near-field monitors Than he has those big Woofers... but one thing i learned on a quick visit at Sae-Institute in Stockholm was: that first of all - the mix must sound *good* on the small monitors.
I don't know if that's just a "mainstream-music way of mixing" but I think it makes sense.


Yeah, it's not a NEED or someting you MUST do. There's never a HAVE TO in creating, producing, mixing or whatever.
Everything is legal, as long as it sounds good and makes you creative.
The thing is, that if you start with the big monitors (large Dynacords with subwoofers, for erxample), you might get used to the sound too early. Because of the higher loudness.
Usually you do it all on the clear-sounding moni's of your choice and then you check back on the large ones.
They produce more bass because of the larger resonance-room.
Better start off with the medium range-frequencys, then add the higher ones and then switch the bass on as well. The bass absorbs the biggest part of the musical energy you have to give away.
I like to look at it this way:
You have an empty pot for your audible energy. You might wanna fill it totally up with sound, but then you would get only 'loud' music with not much dynamics. If you fill too less in it, it sounds weak. Try to go to 4/5, that's the typical Prodigy-ratio, for example. Not much dynamics, but still better mixed and mastered then Korn or any other Nu Metal-band.
(Just loud.)
And the bass 'eats' most of the energy, because of some physial things like length of the waveform and stuff like that.
So room for the bass is spared, until you've got everything above mixed out.
Some engineers do it the other way round, just try it yourself.
Depends on what kind of music you wanna mix, as you assumed.
Quote
So...? The woofers is just a nice toy when the mix is ready, to satisfy our needs of booming bass :-)
Am I right??


In relation to what I wrote above...: Yes. :-))

Quote
(and of course - by switching the subwoofers on, we get a picture how the complete mix sounds on a Club/big PA)
/ Greetings from Stuff


Mhhhm. I'd say no, because every club has a different pa, beginning with the mixing desks, over the length of the cables, to enhancers, exciters and shit like this and finally the speakers itself. Not to forget the room. Might absorb something, might amplify something, you don't know.

Sure, you might get something like a certain picture of the sound when switching it on, but really, never rely on this.
You wouldn't believe how much things like roomsize, -material and -design matter.

Quote
dunno, guys.. first all, i'm not that rich to choose, secondly, i've got little another opinion about monitors. i prefer usual kind of monitor sound, some good mini hi-fi component systems (i like sony stuff here). why? because then i hear the sounds as all usual people hear it. when i'm doing a tune i hear the same that other peeps will hear. but that's my imho of course.


Hehe, no, you don't! ;-P

That's the reason, why there ARE monitors in the first way.
Because every hifi-stereo sounds different. From manufacturer to manufacturer of course.
They all use different IC-elements and so on. It depends on things like size of the condensers, coils etc.
Sony is a good example for a builder of hifi-components that put stuff into their amps and speakers, to alter the sound.
Listen to a cd on the NS10M's and then on some sort of hifi.
It will sound ugly on the NS10M's. Because it's honest!
There's a 'rule' for mixing: If it sounds good on the NS10's, it sounds good on everything. Sort of.
The other way round, it doesn't sound good on everything if it sounds good on your home-stereo.
If you want to make it professional and somewhat uniformly when it comes to mixing-quality, you can't get around a real studio-monitor set up.

Which is mostly the most expensive part of the complete studio set up. Beside the mixing desk, of course.

Cheers dudes,
Ekko
« Last Edit: January 28, 2003, 07:24:27 PM by Ekko »
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Stuff (login problems)

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2003, 04:38:12 AM »
Hello Ekko! nice to see you back and sorting things out :-)

Since my last post on Monitor Speakers, I've purchased a W-30 and the U-220 (I asked about before). But still no monitors..
But I've been listening to some.

First of all Yamaha MSP5 - they sounded really good, maybe the best for me so far - in mid and hi-range frequencies. But their bass response was WEAK! Though I liked their upper-frequencies I could buy a subwoofer and use the Msp5 to provide mid and high freq.
But that's not my game, I want two reliable nearfield monitors, no woofers and shite like that all over the place ;-)

I've been listening to Behringer Truth, their price is very attractive, and they can play LOUD! But I noticed some missing part in the mid-range and especially in the lower-end bass (my personal opinion).

I've heard the ALesis M1 Active, actually they were really good at all frequencies, impressive bass response for such small speakers. But they sort of knocked out when I raised the volume to my taste of level (hate low volumes) ;-)

I also have heard the Event 20/20bas but not that much so I can't give you my honest opinion about them.

Then I've heard these bastards: MACKIE HR824. Magnificent!! No need for subwoofers and stuff like that, their bass-response is so good (there is a passive element inside them) and the mid and hi-freq were good enough to fall in love with these ones.
I think they were best of them all! Unfortunatley they are very expensive.

I've noticed that the price of the Mackies is very good in USA (half of the price in Sweden). But I still haven't found any company that can post a pair of these to Sweden (also with my electronical standard - 230 V/50 Hz).
I'll wait and see what happens..
Anyway.. for the moment, I know what I want!

Regards

Ekko

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2003, 02:28:20 PM »
Hi,

the Mackies are great, right, if you find a way to afford them or get them sent, do it.

If you've got a bit more money, you HAVE to check out the Adam P11. They were the last Monitor-test-winners in a lot of mags here.
Haven't heard them so far, but everybody who did was totally flashed. Very linear, very truthful.

The Behringers are a good joke, if you ask me, they are labelled "Truth" and twist the sound like no other... ;-)
Good HiFi-speaker, though...

How's your experience with the W-30 so far?

Greets
Ekko
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Stuff (login probs again)

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2003, 01:39:29 AM »
I haven't heard of the P11's, seems intresting! But I don't even know if I can afford a pair of Mackies.. then the Adam P11 is no choice for me.

Yea, a lot of folks where I live have bought the TRUTH's. I think they got so excited about their low price so they forgot to listen to them  ;D.


Well, my W-30 arrived this week so I haven't spend so much time with it so far.
I have explored the sequencer a little bit with some simple recording.
And I have done some (line-in) sampling which is easy, because I didn't have to read the manual to learn that part :-P
Still.. the manual is unavoidable when it comes to learn the rest of the machine.

But I'm progressing with it, even if It's like learning to walk again or something.. ;-)

And of course... the W-30 looks focking beautiful with it's black steel cover, and the big blue light screen :)

Greetings

Ekko

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2003, 02:10:42 AM »
Always nice to see another perfect match...
Tradition IS a tradition

Mike Johnson

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2003, 03:45:22 AM »
how about those Behringer Eurolive speakers :'(

Stuff!

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2003, 03:52:22 AM »
Yeah what about them? Behringer Eurolive are PA.
We were talking about speakers for studio work.
But I think Eurolive do what they are supposed to do, if you want some PA loudspeakers.

Greets

kenzie

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2003, 12:56:08 PM »
so seeing that NS10 don't get made anymore, what is the next "worse" thing ( still in production of course )
What is the worst sounding speakers ( good monitors )  currently on the market?

over and out
you've got to open up your eyes and see the light

Stuff

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2003, 01:51:06 AM »
i would not buy those M-Audio Studiophiles, but thats just beacuse they are the cheapest. Haven't heard them or anything  ;D

brainstorm

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Re: Monitor Speakers
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2003, 06:05:24 PM »
Hi guys, how are u?

I've got problem with monitor speakers too. I have NS-10, JBL 1410, and Haffner, I forgot what series. But I like to use Haffner. The NS-10 is confusing. I often got problem in equalizing low frequency. And JBL is too soft. Hi Stuff, so u got the W-30. My W-30 has broken its floppy drive. It is expensive to fix the floppy drive here. It cannot load the data from its OS disk, so I guess the problem is in the floppy drive.
Hi Ekko, which one do u prefer, Korg Kaoss Pad 2 or Kaoss Pad Mixer?

See ya,
Nice to meet you all again

 

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